iConflict

Its good to read about different perspectives, but its hard to side with the Chinese on this issue given the documentation of what has gone on within Tibet.

True or False:
The Chinese do not allow Tibetans to practice their religion as they want.

True or False:
Tibetans have been imprisoned and tortured for singing Tibetan songs about their country.

True or False:
The Chinese kidnapped the 8 year old Panchen Lama and his family. They have never been seen since.

True or False:
Most Tibetans hold the Dalai Lama as their spiritual and political leader.

So where is the western bias and error? The plain facts (and even the Chinese) state in these cases that something is wrong in Tibet. China is the one holding to the old debates about whether or not Tibet is part of China, the Dalai Lama dropped that argument years ago. He is just asking that lamas not be kidnapped, monks not be tortured, nuns not be raped, and that Tibetans can move freely and pray how and where they want.

Don't be torn over the issue. There are no reporting errors. Go to Tibet and ask any Tibetan. If only China would allow it.

(and as this debate continues, let's not debate whether Tibet is part of China. That is a moot point.)

An open letter to the west

Ladies and Gentlemen from the West:

I wonder why you have so much misunderstanding about China. Now, I would like to set several examples as following.

1,Just like that we had been told that all people living under capitalism society were leading a miserable life and it was our duty to free them. To one�s amusement,at present, the westerners see us in the same way and want to free us! They don�t know we don�t feel painful actually. On the contrary, we are happy.

2,Let�s suppose that China were a woman unmarried and democracy were a baby. Even though the woman wanted a baby, she did absolutely not expect to being raped in order to get a baby.

3,You always think that there is no democracy in China. In fact, most Chinese feel satisfied with status quo of democracy because it is less than 100 years since we had been freed from the control of emperor which had been ruled us more than 2000 years.

What can�t be beared by Chinese Communist and Chinese common people who all value harmony is the cruel serfdom which had lasted till 1950 in Tibet. The system without human had only ever existed in Europ in Middle Ages.

4,It is true that CCP have ever made some mistakes before. In spite of this,it is not true that Chinese have been ready to overthrow it at all times. On the contrary, after so many years of reforming,she has gained so much praise. She is in a better condition than some parties in the west.

5, The upmost misunderstanding is about the Communism regime. In the 19th century,Karl Marx�who lived in the west, cherished a deep love for human and tried to set up a society for all common people under cruel economic control. He had done it on kind and honest purpose. Why do you common people hate the system like posion?

You may be not for it ,but you should not vilify it. If you did, you would disappoint him in heavens. At present, you disappoint us. You act as if we were all poor thugs who have been tring to rob the rich at all time. You are wrong. We are working hard to creat wealth. Among us, thousands of thouasands persons are richer tha the president of US so far.

One of Chinese

"He is just asking that lamas not be kidnapped, monks not be tortured, nuns not be raped, and that Tibetans can move freely and pray how and where they want." Kidnapped?tortured?raped? How did you know? or You are telling lie on purpose? China is a nation with law! NOT a Mafia !

Duren - how would you respond to charges from the western media of brutality in Tibet against the followers of the Dalai Lama. From your prospective are the allegations false?

Today, many western people still believe Chinese are brainwashed. Ironically, I would say, just the opposite may be closer to the fact.

In China, people experienced �cultural revolution� and many other movements. So they realized that in many cases the official propaganda could be wrong. Then we young Chinese get used to find the truth by ourselves. We get used to find firsthand evidences (videos, pics, mostly taken by western tourists) and make our own judgment. (And that�s why we believe so confidently that Dalai Lama is merely a liar, and the official saying is right at least in this case.)

After Mar.14, I see another kind of �brainwash�: Some western people believe what ever media said. It seems that some people are so lazy that they neglect these firsthand evidences and simply follow the opinions of some certain press like CNN. Dalai said that CCP was acting �cultural genocide�. Other Tibetan separatists said Tibetans were oppressed by majority Chinese. Then some guys simply believed them, neglecting the fact that each year CCP spent billions of dollars in Tibet (Much of the fund was used to maintain comfortable livings for Tibetan monks!!!). This is the most powerful �brainwash� in this world, for the objects of this kind of �brainwash� neglect the possibility that they are brainwashed.

Guys, you must find the truth by yourself. Just google for these videos and photos (taken by your western tourists) about the situation in Tibet. Can you find any evidence that can support Dalai�s sayings? (�peaceful protest�, �bloody suppress�, etc�)

By the way, I should remind you: do NOT regard ambulance as �armed vehicle� (as did by some German media), do NOT regard Nepal policeman in Katmandu as �Chinese soldier in Tibet� (as did by CNN).

Quote from Nebali
�
True or False:
1.)The Chinese do not allow Tibetans to practice their religion as they want.

True or False:
2.)Tibetans have been imprisoned and tortured for singing Tibetan songs about their country.

True or False:
3.)The Chinese kidnapped the 8 year old Panchen Lama and his family. They have never been seen since.

True or False:
4.)Most Tibetans hold the Dalai Lama as their spiritual and political leader.
�

I will answer your question:
1.) False
2.) ?? Excuse me, but I don�t know what�s �Tibetan songs about their country�
3.) False
4.) False

Detail of my answer:
1.) Today there are still many monks and temples in Tibet. And every year CCP spend millions of dollars to support Tibet Buddhism. However Chinese government forbids any worship of separatists of the country (like Dalai Lama).

2.) What�s �Tibetan songs about their country�?
First, Tibet is not a country. China established firm sovereignty in Tibet (in about 1730s) much earlier than U.S was founded (in 1776).
If you are referring to some song of separatism, then of course the singer could be arrested.
Will U.S government allow you to sing �Texas must be Free from U.S� on the street?

3.) Your question shows your ignorance of that issue. The fact is, in 1995, Dalai Lama arbitrarily declared a certain boy was 10th Panchen Lama. That obviously violates the traditional procedure of Reincarnation System.

How can Dalai decide Panchen? Does Dalai believe Panchen is his puppet?

The tradition is that some prestigious monks will be assigned to find the reincarnation of Panchen Lama (They find several possible target boys, and then let God show them the right Panchen by special ritual.). However Dalai sent his man to take part in this activity (that man pretended to be not relative with Dalai). Before the last ritual (to let God select the right Panchen from 3 possibly boys), that man managed to informed Dalai Lama (he�s abroad of China at that time, of course) one boy�s name. Dalai Lama immediately declared that boy to be Panchen Lama, in order to gain political and religious influence (--as: I am more powerful. You see? Panchen is appointed by me Dalai.). The fact is Dalai broke the tradition, and his appointment was illegal.

And the real Panchen Lama (appointed through the ritual) is right there. But he is not recognized by Dalai and his followers.

4.) The majority of Tibetan held Dalai as their biggest religious leader, but not political leader. Only few Tibetans (primarily offspring of original Tibetan landlord) want to get back to theocracy. After all, no one wants to be serfs rather than citizen.

I was surprised that many Western guys regard old Tibet (the Tibet between 1911 and 1959) as �paradise� or �ideal natural civilization�. I wonder whether they love theocracy or favor Middle Ages in Europe.

I just wonder why the police in the photo is not Chinese,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The police in the photo are not Chinese polic.
They are Nepalese policeman!!!!
so i propose that administrator change this photo.

nebali said: True or False:
The Chinese do not allow Tibetans to practice their religion as they want.

answer: there are thousands of monks and nuns in tibet as we speak, who practice their religion the way they want. They are the majority, and they are peaceful.

True or False:
Tibetans have been imprisoned and tortured for singing Tibetan songs about their country.

answer: western propaganda. The tibetan language is the lingua franca in tibetan schools.


True or False:
The Chinese kidnapped the 8 year old Panchen Lama and his family. They have never been seen since.

answer: western propaganda


True or False:
Most Tibetans hold the Dalai Lama as their spiritual and political leader.

answer: the dalai was never the only lama in tibet. There is the panchen lama.


China is the one holding to the old debates about whether or not Tibet is part of China, the Dalai Lama dropped that argument years ago.

answer: there is no need for china to debate on sovereignty issues.


He is just asking that lamas not be kidnapped, monks not be tortured, nuns not be raped, and that Tibetans can move freely and pray how and where they want.

comment: propaganda stuff. There are no laws condoning rape in China. You believe what you want to believe. There is religious freedom in China, except where certain religious establishments act as agents of foreign govts.

China may be hiding something at first, but western media is making total fabrications. China has had an effective rule of Tibet for over 200 years, earlier than the founding of USA,. Dalai Lama used to be the biggest slave owner in modern age. He is not the only religious leader in Tibet, there is a Panchen Lama and there are others. Without CIA backing, Dalai Lama is half dead from hunger. Stop using him as a tool, his days are numbered, his successor has to be endorsed by China, in the old times by Chinese emperors.

jason said: Its good to read about different perspectives, but its hard to side with the Chinese on this issue given the documentation of what has gone on within Tibet.
---------------------------
I am firmly on the side of Tibet ever since I watched a video shot by an American group of mountain climbers who witnessed chinese soldiers shooting helpless tibetan refugees in the mountains. They just shoot these people with AK47s as they peacefully try to make their way to escape Chinese persecution.

Escape persecution ? Making up stories again. There is no persecution at all of law abiding citizens in China. Only persecution of smugglers, and suspicious characters who slip in and out of China without going through proper procedures -- customs and immigrations.

How about this? American soldier shoots an unarmed Iraqi:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-09-27-us-soldier-trial_N.htm

I'm with daphne: why the picture?
It's a hint or something? just unfair.

and to Uroborus: what's the video? it's that so believable? You know, the PLA is one of the advanced army of modern world(no,i'm not that proud of it),their uniform and arming always very good(in most "the video",they wear in rags and tatters�that's stupid fake)�especially the army in border area like Tibet(XiZang). They equiped 81-1 in 80's last century(which like AK-47),from the end of 90's they use 95(which is huge differrent from AK-47 in looking). Say nothing of if they really want to do sth,they don't have to let the foreigners know in the border.Why?Are they nuts?
So , i strongly doubt the authenticity of mountain climbers' video.
You should doubt too.

Escape persecution and refugees? Ok ,don't make me laugh. Refugees to where, India? Nipel?Bhutan? Cross over the Himalaya to invest those neighbors?

sorry for some spelling mistakes

I didn't know CNN was quoted as saying the Police in this photo are Chinese. and protest was in Tibet. But what I truly knonw for sure is that Tibetan's peaceful demonstration was craked down heavily by the armed chinese police. Pictures aside, we have had so many phone calls and sms and MSMs during the riot and it was more horrendous than you would ever imagine.

Provided the CNN's misqoute was true, does it make chinese crime lesser? I don't think so. It made even worse. Tibetans have died. Media is blocked, phonelines cut, cable connection cut..what would you expect the things to be happening in Tibet right now...and even worse after the Olympics.

.
---------------------------
tongsampah said: nebali said: True or False:
The Chinese do not allow Tibetans to practice their religion as they want.

answer: there are thousands of monks and nuns in tibet as we speak, who practice their religion the way they want. They are the majority, and they are peaceful.
Answer for answer : I don't know where are those thousands of monks..I believe they are not the armies in monk's disguise!!. Latest information is that the number of monks is fixed by the CCP around 30-40 in each big monasteries. But tere used to be more than 6000 monastries all over Tibet and at gomang alone there used to be 7700 monks.

True or False:
Tibetans have been imprisoned and tortured for singing Tibetan songs about their country.

answer: western propaganda. The tibetan language is the lingua franca in tibetan schools.
Answer for answer: The question is whether Tibetans being tortured for singing their national song about their country..let alone singing thye song containing the mention of HHDL 's name, they make life living hell for those who unknowingly put FREE TIBET badge.


True or False:
The Chinese kidnapped the 8 year old Panchen Lama and his family. They have never been seen since.

answer: western propaganda
Answer for answer: Gendun Choekyi Nyima (the Panchen Lama was unheard of since his kidnap. We doubt he has been killed in secrecy along with his parents


True or False:
Most Tibetans hold the Dalai Lama as their spiritual and political leader.

answer: the dalai was never the only lama in tibet. There is the panchen lama.
Answer for answer; HHDL is the Temporal head through out the Tibetan History. Panchen as of now has been kidnapped since his childhood and might have been murdered in secrecy along with his family.


China is the one holding to the old debates about whether or not Tibet is part of China, the Dalai Lama dropped that argument years ago.

answer: there is no need for china to debate on sovereignty issues.
Answer for answer: HHDL says we can't undo the hisroty which tells the other story. But looking at the present situation, it is beneficial for the Tibetans to co-exist with chinese.


He is just asking that lamas not be kidnapped, monks not be tortured, nuns not be raped, and that Tibetans can move freely and pray how and where they want.

comment: propaganda stuff. There are no laws condoning rape in China.

Law doesn't apply when the law makers are up to breaking it. Rape is as common as date in Tibet. Geographical rape is other topic

You believe what you want to believe. There is religious freedom in China, except where certain religious establishments act as agents of foreign govts.

It this religios freedom that you can't keep the photo of person you respect and revere. Is this religious freedom that can have more than certain numbers of monks in the monastery. Is this religious freedom that you monatrey has to face the CCP inspection after every interval of time.
---------------------------

TO:kushh ,For the1st answer:
Could you tell me WHERE are your "Latest information" come from ?
I guess you mean this picture(the first one)�
http://news.qq.com/a/20080402/003004.htm
The picture took before 2005 for a regional millitary performance�maybe a soap opera, someone even say that in early 2003, �Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy� have used it . Believeit or not, I can prove it:
See the people's clothing(both soldiers' and inhabitants'), It's summer clothing in there, after Labour Day(1st,May) and before the national day(1st,October) in the year at least. The riot happened in 14th March. Do you know how cold is it in Lasa city of March this year? I'm not sure, about-1~5 C degree maybe? What i 'm sure is the night go DeepFreeze after 9:00pm those days. Don't mention the cold wind like blades of the Lady. Have you really been any altiplano like Lasa?
It's the first proof.

TO dear kushh,For the1st answer,Proof NO.2:
The UNIFORM. As you can see in the 2nd picture, the top-left little picture shows the traveling bicycles after October 2004 will all wear blue-cover,red-curtain as unifying(bad habit in communism country,isn't it? but convenient in figuring truth).
And the millitary uniform, as the notes saying, added epaulet after New Year's day of 2005,and you know what, the corrupt and peacockish army changed their uniform again last year in the Army's Day(1st,Augest)! From the gray-green to dark-green new-style uniform:
http://www.zhongshe.com/forum/view_53510,4.html
see it youself.

Damn the PLA! Spend tax in clothing rather than weapons, totally cissies!

ps: someone says even the Lama Gown is not right, but it's hard to explain by my poor english.
(Hey! I found it's unfair from the first begining in the debate. I just have too use your mother tongue to debate with you!)

the eguda said: As you can see in the 2nd picture, the top-left little picture shows the traveling bicycles after October 2004 will all wear blue-cover,red-curtain as unifying(bad habit in communism country,isn't it? but convenient in figuring truth).
-----this is Tibetan style!!!! ignorant kid.

but What is it exactly you wanna say???!

TO dear kushh,For the1st answer�
About the 30-40 CCP in temples? I don't know , can't say anything.

kushh said:But what I truly knonw for sure is that Tibetan's peaceful demonstration was craked down heavily by the armed chinese police.
-------First, how do you know it's peaceful? show me evidence!
Actually, the people in the riot are some rogues buyed off by ZangQing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Pictures aside, we have had so many phone calls and sms and MSMs during the riot and it was more horrendous than you would ever imagine.
-----------pix...show me the pix and I'll tell you what is the truth.calls?sms? msm? yeah it is horrible, but you have no idea and evidence who commited it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tibetans have died. ---evidence?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Media is blocked, phonelines cut, cable connection cut..what would you expect the things to be happening in Tibet right now
--------to prevent you from twisting the fact and spreading lies !who knows you would intentionly misquote again???Don't be so confident on your media! I can't understand why you trust your media so much. We locked the media, but visitors are welcome--unless with evil scheme--to see what the real Tibet is.

For the 2cd answer:
There is monks who were prisoned before 14th,march as i know.The number is about that is the fuse of the riot. I'm not speaking in advocacy of all the acts of my government.. There are lot of mistakes in the XiZang affairs during these years. But the country,no matter how you don't like it, it's runed by laws, not by maffias. Late in 16th last month,t here is still 3 monks of Geleng monastery prisoned in the calaboose of Aba state. But there is no execution, OK!
And "Being tortured for singing their national song"?! "TORTURE"?!
I can't say anything about your Imagination. ...torture... How?

What is the nation ,from when? Is Tibet a nation in history at all? Tell me about that, and don't repeat the rabish from Dalai.
The more I meet some freedom soldiers, the more depression I burdened. I'm really annoyed that they always eqauls the China as a "Han China". Come on!get some common senses!
Tang(dynasty), 618-907AD,Princess WenCheng Married the Tibet King Songzangangbu. From then on, the middle land and Tibet �Close together as one family�.But it's not the legally union,it's just "father and son-in-low" relationship in name.
Then it's the short and disordered �5 genarations and 10 kingdoms�era.
The Song(dynasty), 960-1279AD reunioned middleland, and the loose relationship went on. In the time,the Tibet kings must be confered titles on by the central government of Song just like in Tang Dynasty.It is important because it's the key to explain next "Ture or False".Explain why Gendun Choekyi Nyima won't be the Panchen Lama unfortunately due to Dalai himself partly.

http://zcfj.zgfj.cn/showpic.asp?upid=195

Then the the rise of the Mangolian.Ghinggis Khan conquered XiXia(means"West China",also a dependency of Song,which was close to the altiplano and fight for handred years with Tibet),but Ghinggis Khan didn't conquer Tibet by his army (It's said that he sent his army easily to the hinterland of Tibet cause XiXia the Gate has been opened),they just allied. The Tibet wisdom hierarch Phags-pa(means Saint)helped mangolian created their own language and be Kubilai khan's teacher.
And he also spread the Vajrayana(one of the Buddhism branches,also called Lama religion in the middle land,not that respectable)into Mangolian altiplano.As a result the Chinese and mangolian become the official languages, And Vajrayana become the state religion(it is so in Qing Dynasty 500 years later).
From then on, the middle government rules Tibet legally but still loosely.

http://www.hoodong.com/wiki/%E6%88%90%E5%90%89%E6%80%9D%E6%B1%97

And that happened in early 13th century,when Ghinggis Khan died in1227,he even yet conquer the north China.Then his son conquered Russia and attacked Hungary from 1220s to 1240s. And his grandson conquered Baghdad in 1258.
Why bother to say that ? Cause i want to mention you the Song is still there on the south bank of yellow river,occupied whole south China ,existed until 20 years later the another grandson of Ghinggis khan, Kubilai conquered Song at last.
So,it's the Yuan(Dynasty), 1279-1368AD, the first time middle government has the undoubtable sovereignty of Tibet.
Don't tell me that Yuan was a Mongolian empire, not Chinese one,Kubilai khan was the recognized lord of the four Khan's Kimdoms that composed the empire. And middle government, as a legally national acceding, is a mangolian Chinese,and it's not the first "unHan Chinese"in history. But it's the first time the minority regime ruled whole China including north and south. It inherited the Song partly in political system but failed rapidly less than 100 years.
Ming(dynasty), 1368-1644AD replaced Yuan,and inherited the special suzerainty in Tibet. There is the Gelu's rise(Dge-lugs-pa),found by Je Tsongkhapa(1357�1419) ,and the traditional Tibet king's power fell during the time. His two disciples are Dalai Lama & Panchen Lama. Ming government(Beijing government from then on) can hardly control Tibet while the expled mongolian regime confered the Dalai Lama title on the 3rd Dalai Lama (Sonam Gyatso) .
Qing(dynasty), 1644-1912.2.12. Manchu allied with Mongol, and influenced by mongol ,they also embraced Vajrayana as the national religion.For political purpose also.
Qing ruled Tibet undoubtly, and first time the Dalai Lama went to Beijing and Rehe to meet the emperor. And the emperor built small Lasa in Rehe palace for Dalai. But only until the britian's invation in 1888,the government started realizing they should tighten the bond between central government and Tibet. And sent officers and armys to rule directly. And you know Kong Pao Chicken,the inventor "Kong Pao",Ding Baozhen,is the minister who governed Szechwan and promoted that.
Unfortunatly,the democratic revolution took place in 1912, the process had been cut off. and then the chaos in middle land and 1929 the Japs' invation, WorldWar II,the Tibet actually ruled themselves for almost 40 years. But there is no acceptance in diploma even from Britain the once-occupier. Let alone the independence legally.

To be continued...

To Eguda or Pagoda,

Truth doesn't need eveidence. It is self illuminating and experiences the ultimate triumph. Where as lie needs lengthy articles, distorted pictures, manipulated testimonies, orchestrated drama, rented crowd, baught-resource persons-like Ex- Japan Time editor, Editor of Hindu time etc. etc. etc.to make it sound to be true.

I am not talking about the controversial picture that was on internet recently, I am talking about the eye witness accounts of the the peaceful demonstrators in Tibet.

You asked how can I say the demonstration was peaceful. How can you say that it was a violent? Peaceful demonstration continued for 3 days, on the 4th day ,chinese police in Tibetan diguise (who was later identified by some tourist)foolishly waved his chinese-made sword. to instigate the voilence and in other areas chinese police and chinese armies in monks and laymen's disguise wreaked havoc around the muslim resident areas to make the matter appear more violent and give PLA an easy excuse to shoot and detain at their own will which the police have done without remorse.

When all the blame you put on HHDL and tIbetans looked hollow and baseless. CCTV broughtout photoes of some shabily dressed poor Tibetans and publicised that PLA found home-made bomb from this gang. Even the fools won't believe such accusation made to some very thin ematiated and poverty stricken people, It looked a silly joke to me when I saw that photo and article for the first time. Their face show the expression as if they were made to live under fear and uncertainty for the last fifty years.

In its effort to brand monks as terrorist, your CCP tried to collect all the outdated guns, old-model explosives, arrows and bows..(which the Tibetan monasteries have the tradition of keeping in their guardian diety room) to show case the world that HHDL and Tibetan Exile govt. supply these as a part of their terrorist attack plan. No body bought this ugly cooked up stories. Do tibetans want to fight with arrows and bows while chinese are equipped with tanks and missiles???

The next attempt was to derrogate and demean TYC..your CCP call the TYC more dangerious than Bin Laden's group. Did they prove it?. Did they have any incidence to tell where TYC has used arms?. I can proudly say in history of TYC, not even a stick was used to express their agitation. Do you call this group more dangerous than Al-kaida?

I know that Chinese communist doesn't respect truth. But I also know that the TRUTH will express itself . Sooner or later the world community will make china to accept the truth.

I will get back to you to answer your next question about history..

There is a song containing the mention of DL 's name.It isn't the"national song" , you can say "a spiritual song" or something like that.
I even can imagine that if you sing the song public place in government office or school or some assembly�you will �asked to have a conversation�in local police station,it's totally possible.
But that's all, you will taught and reasoned for several hours� and maybe an afternoon for patriotic lessons in everyweek in the follow month. it's not News. My roomie, a Falun Kong fellow,endured that in the first year in college as he missionizing us. After that, he still do what he want. As long as he keep low-key.
So I can say that if a tibetan insist to sing that song several times after Mind-teachings(not that scaring like 1984), the police may probably leave him alone as long as he don't sing the song in some sensive places like what i tell you. I think even he sing in the Potala plaza.
But WHY?
I can understand some of the tibetans miss Dalai Lama,want him back as a religion leader.
But whatelse?
No factual reasons. The life is far more better than the outsiders' can imagine,the older generations do thank CCP let them free from the slavery system(I'm not making tales, the farmers out of the way who can't say Mandarin keep the pictures both Buddh and Mao's in their home, even the Han people in middle land didn't do that for many years,we can hardly understand the emotion, which I think is true. You can test it yourself someday when you are there, won't be long time).
As I mentioned the Buddh features ,actually as I know, it means Dalai and Panchen�s feature.The attitude of the local government is basically "let it go". It's smart attitude.
The youngers, with educational rate of 98.2%,with both Han and Zang language abilities,can earn their own lives anywhere in the country. And they don't have to take the Birth-Control. No, they don't and never do. Where the rumours come from,er? My mother is a officer charge in the birth control policy,most of her job is preaching,and it's effective.
I don't know what's going on in other border place,maybe more brutal,but I'm so sure, in Tibet, as a minority, you don't need to be bothered at all. The policy is only for Hans.
Verifying it as you want,anytime!
Maybe there is complains in the younger generation because they do suffer that two languages education for nothing. The Tibetan language almost useless outside Tibet�and it's hard to learn(so is chinese), so lots of the youth choose learn chinese only, and make short shrift of their mother language(speaking is enough). This,if I'm Dalai, I will worry too. Let alone even they graguated from college, they just can hardly get a profit job in the rich provinces cause the differentia in both cultural habits and life style. They do sit the inferior position in the capitalist economy,who should be pay more attention and get more allowance.
About all these, We can discuss as social or cultural problems and I do believe we chinese will find the way to make all happy by ourselves own as a internal challenge.Thank you for your care!
And the religion policies such as no keepsakes in elementary school and no Dalai's feature in public place. Those are defferent with the time in "Great Culture Revolution"era. Just can be discussed and solved, only a matter of time.
But call all these�Cultural Genocide� ? It's just exaggerating and unreasonable.

And "make life living hell "? Who? That's bullshit. Empty and Makeup.
If there is no 3.14 riot in Lasa, you can still free to enter Lasa and see what you want to see,connect anyone you want to seek. It's not a big deal to find some prooves if there is someone really be persecuted by CCP or police just because they sang a song or by "unknowingly put FREE TIBET badge".
It's not "Great Culture Revolution" time ! Nobody,even the most enthusiasm communist will do that. What you said is just like that time.That's 30 years ago in cold war!
Just can't convicted any one.

I'm totally tired to type all these. I'm exhausted.
But the next topic is the young Panchen ,it happens I know something by unofficial channel� And I�m so sure the boy Gendun Choekyi Nyima is save.

To be continued...

"Panchen Lama" and "safe" , sorry for errors.

To Eguda for your persoanl History recipe:

I don't think from the time of chinese civilization, chinese empire extended beyond the great wall of china which is some thousand kms in length though the Ming emperor extended it some more kms to make it total of about 6000kms.

Though we are not here to make or remake history, but the truth has to be told.
Your relating Tibetan history with that of chinese to claim dominace is unfounded and unacceptable. Tibet has its own unique civilization dating back, as per some archeologal findings, more than 8000years ago. But why go that far, because chinese civilization is only 2500 years old.

Tibetans history as per your information touches only the religious aspect and not the political one.

On the contrary ,Tibet's Military strength was significant considering the fact that Wenchen kongjo was brought tforcibly to Tibet as one of the brides for King Srongtsen in 7th century likewise pricess Brikuti from Nepal. It was Tibet, more pwerful than nepal and China during that time not the otherwise.

"Ming(dynasty), 1368-1644AD replaced Yuan,and inherited the special suzerainty in Tibet"

How can you bluntly speculate so. History is the winess that Tibet was spared by the mighty mongolian who established Yuan dinasty iabout a 100 years n china. The relation between the Mongolian and Tibetan was purely religious- teacher-taught relationship. you can refer to Mongolian History if you like.

From the 14th century till 19th Century, Tibet's history was purely spiritual and there was nothing to Talk about politics as the Dalai Lamas had been revered and respected not noly by the Tibetans, but also tby he Mongolians and Chinese as well.



It was only during 193os that young husband expidition entered Tibet witth colonalizing intention but was met with strong resistance from the Tibetans and had to leave Tibet. By late 1930s Tibet was gripped under lots of internal turmoils and Finaly in late 1940s PLA entered Tibet with load sof promises to modernise Tibet. During the 1950s Chinese were constantly brainwashing common Tibetans agains HHDL and aristocrates and and were up to dismantling the stabilty of fragile the then fragile Tibetan government. in1956 Chinese forced tibetans to sign unacceptable 17 point agreement at thte gun-point. People's threshold of Tolerence surpassed in 1959 which led to March 10th Uprising. This was followed by HHDL flight to india and begins the simmering of Tibet and Tibetan into the tragic trap of chinese brutality. As a result 600 monasteries were destroyed, 1.2million tibetans were slaughtered before, during and after the dark period of Cultural revolution.
Ethnic cleansing process is still in progress, thanks to the media that though only for a short time, Tibetan language is shown to be taught, monasteries shown to be functional, tibetans shown to be contended....but only in front of camara...camara is gone- language is gone, monastery is gone,monks are gone, happy tibetans are gone....only tthe gloomy parts prevail.

This is the Truth of Tibet Today..you call it History, geography, Philosophy of politice.

pardon it is more than 6000 monasteries destroyed not 600.

Thyme17

You can have your answer that I posted for eguda.

You want eveidence, The media sensitisation, counter-allegation, resource person talk shows, Internet hecking, spamming and Jamming couldn't help in anyway to prove your CCP's inocense. This I think is the biggest proof that Tibetans are killed and still being killed in secrecy.

By the way TRUTH can't be tempered. Only the TRUTH triumph at the end.

eguda said: "Panchen Lama" and "safe" , sorry for errors.

So you mean Panchen lama Gendun Choekyi Nyima is murdered??????
---------------------------

- - To kushh:
"pardon it is more than 6000 monasteries destroyed not 600." , It's not totally make up, it is just MIX UP and BLUSTEROUS again.
I think you are dishonest.
Including a picture exhibition front for by VOA(The Voice of America ),in 21st-22nd� September,2007. there is about 2700 monasteries in the XiZang Municipality(half of Tibet, the traditional tibetan habitation)before (GCR)"the Great Cultural Revolution", at last eight biggest ones saved after the year 1978,end of the GCR when Mao died 2 years ago. GCR is not just aimed at tibetan, OK! It's hurt the whole country, everyone, it's part of cold war, part of �the Global Left Wing Movement" like Paris and WoodStock, only it's a national form in China.
And the 6000 monasteries, it 's including all the zones, Qinghai Proince, Gansu Province, Sichuan Province and Yunnan Province,mainly habitanted by all the nationalities, and the temples and monasteries are all branches of Buddhism,not just Lama the Vajrayana.
Why VOA and you didn't mention the resuming jobs after the GCR by Chinese government during the middle of 70s to 90s last century? Why not tell others the Chinese government have gotten back earlier in their policies in minority issue and religion issue?
Why not mention 400 million financing poured into this area only for religion?
Even Bush knows that !
There is proper funds to mend the damaged monasteries, and most of the old monasteries and old Lamas still have the estate. As I said,you may know,there is 2.6163 million people live in XiZang, including Han and Muslim, more than 2.4 million Zangs 5/2 times than 1951(tell me about Indians), at the mean while 1780 monasteries in the XiZang Municipality now, 130 nunneries thereinto by official channeland.100 only in Lasa City! It's easy to prove, just buy a train tichet and move your own feet to there.

http://zhihai.heshang.net/Article/fytd/fxys/200606/34396.html

http://zcfj.zgfj.cn/

- - To kushh:
"So you mean Panchen lama Gendun Choekyi Nyima is murdered??????"
I mean Gendun Choekyi Nyima is safe in QingHai somewhere.
It's that fun to misinterpret other's word?

And like it or not , Gendun Choekyi Nyima is not PanChen Lama, the reason is still a tradition of Tibet.
The 11th PanChen Erdini Qoigyijabu IS in Tashilhunpo Monastery,Shigatse.

Panchen Erdini and Dalai Lama , These are the titles granted by Central Government.

kushh
What do you mean "your CCP"? My Dad is a mumber of CCP and I think it's OK. I'm not a CCP. There is no "my CCP" at all.
And what's wrong about CCP? Do you really know CCP in China? Do you really Know someone CCP in China? I think CCP is OK, not that bad as your illusion.
But what I 'm defending is my Government , Chinese Government, OK!
Make that clear!

To Kushh:
Are you TYC ?!
Frankly, I'd like to hear your voice about this issue if you are TYC,and other voice like the Japanese editor and Indian editor as you mentioned. If you give the links of them I will be happy.

And about the history. If the history is so clear so self-evident , there is no need for us to debate in here.
The reason why I remake history(I don't make it, OK! how can I do that) is not want to proove something. Just show you it's complex and the story can be told by many ways, and you can't deny it.
Is it necessary for us to argue that Tibet belongs to China? Not a Han Chinese or a nationstate ,but China politically and diplomatically, as same important as economically. Leaving it to scholars should be better.We have time to get consensus.

And about your other accusations and the cause and effect about the boy Gendun Choekyi Nyima(he should be a man now,as tall as me.I believe 5 years or 10 years later you will see him) I'd like to tell you my opinion in the following days as my paper has been finished.
Are you TYC again?!
Anyway, it's good to talk even quarrel than fight and hate.

I mean 6000 monasteries of greater calibre Which can accomodate atleast 50 monks. Sera , drepung and Ganden are the mega monasteriers with the monk strength of several thousands. . If you include all the small tempels the count will cross thousands more. Don't just go by what the VOA shows, they could be often misleading.

You asked why I didn't mention that chinese government is investing 400million(Yuan or USD$ you didn't clearify) for the restoration of the monastries....
I also failed to mention about the plunder of priceless(billions and Billions US$ worth) antique Tiebtan statues built will gold, studded with diamonds and adorned with all the precious metals and stones you would ever find in this world. Imagine how much wealth your CCP( I will still stick on my principle to use your CCP as you are advocating, supporting and voicing in favour of CCP) amassed during the last fifty year from the tens of thousands of monasteries in TIBET. Do you feel 400 million is too big a sum against all these wealth???? you seems to be a cute little baby who would be happy and fully satisfied to sell his dad's diamond ring for 1000 chewing gum!!!!!!

"I mean Gendun Choekyi Nyima is safe in QingHai somewhere.
It's that fun to misinterpret other's word?"

Even if he is alive, why he is in captuvity? what is his crime? Only that he is the genuuine incarnate of The Panchen Lama?

For yourlast question..am I TYC? I really appreciate and applaud what the TYC is doing. But one doesn't need to be a member of TYC to voice against the human right violation. Every Tibetans has the right to express what he feels and at this point of time I feel CCP has bullied us, cheated us, tortured us and supressed us,

"Anyway, it's good to talk even quarrel than fight and hate".

We didn't fight you, we didn'y even have the chance to debate with you and definitely we didn't hate you. We will not hate or sure. But we earnestly hope that you would empathize with us and take our grevience to the your top authorities whre our voices don't reach or get no heed!!!

Peace for all.

eguda said: kushh
What do you mean "your CCP"? My Dad is a mumber of CCP and I think it's OK. I'm not a CCP. There is no "my CCP" at all.
And what's wrong about CCP? Do you really know CCP in China? Do you really Know someone CCP in China? I think CCP is OK, not that bad as your illusion.
But what I 'm defending is my Government , Chinese Government, OK!
Make that clear!
---------------------------
Which party is ruling China for the last half a century or so.....I am certain that I am not in slumberr!! Do you want to say that Chinesse government and CCp are two different enteties.

I Know CCP, PLA, PAP..they are very famous in inhumane activities..vandalism and terrorism.

I want to say that if you dont come to China and see what has happended in tibet...then no one has the right to believe what the medie said..
it is completely wrong in this picture..the poplice are not chinese..they are not chinese...chinese police never wear this kind of uniform..and they never fight with tibet people..never....
china and tibet are whole country..tibet people are living a very happy life..it is not like what the media said... i have gone to tibet once..and i am living and growing in china.. i know what is right...not the western media...
all the people who love peace and free..should hve their own eyes toward china, not believe in what the media said...
we people in the earth are whole family..why cant we live harmony..we chinese never want to be a invader or criminor to any people...any country...


nebali said: True or False:
The Chinese do not allow Tibetans to practice their religion as they want.

True or False:
Tibetans have been imprisoned and tortured for singing Tibetan songs about their country.

True or False:
The Chinese kidnapped the 8 year old Panchen Lama and his family. They have never been seen since.

True or False:
Most Tibetans hold the Dalai Lama as their spiritual and political leader.

So where is the western bias and error? The plain facts (and even the Chinese) state in these cases that something is wrong in Tibet. China is the one holding to the old debates about whether or not Tibet is part of China, the Dalai Lama dropped that argument years ago. He is just asking that lamas not be kidnapped, monks not be tortured, nuns not be raped, and that Tibetans can move freely and pray how and where they want.

Don't be torn over the issue. There are no reporting errors. Go to Tibet and ask any Tibetan. If only China would allow it.

(and as this debate continues, let's not debate whether Tibet is part of China. That is a moot point.)
---------------------------
jason said: Its good to read about different perspectives, but its hard to side with the Chinese on this issue given the documentation of what has gone on within Tibet.
---------------------------

I want to say that if you dont come to China and see what has happended in tibet...then no one has the right to believe what the medie said..
it is completely wrong in this picture..the poplice are not chinese..they are not chinese...chinese police never wear this kind of uniform..and they never fight with tibet people..never....
china and tibet are whole country..tibet people are living a very happy life..it is not like what the media said... i have gone to tibet once..and i am living and growing in china.. i know what is right...not the western media...
all the people who love peace and free..should hve their own eyes toward china, not believe in what the media said...
we people in the earth are whole family..why cant we live harmony..we chinese never want to be a invader or criminor to any people...any country...

friends all around the world..pls be faithful to your own hearts and seeing is the believing....

Jessy021jiamg.

Knowing 100% sure that no body will spend so much going to Tibet (High altitude- oxygen Scant place) just to see how happy Tibetans are, you seem so confident extending invitaion worldwide to visit Tibet.

Jessy don't be too messy. Tibetans are not happy under the CCP's rule and this is truth. .Recent riots are self explanatory.You don't have to have seen Tibet to believe this. Because you don't have to go to Norway to verify that there is sunshne even at midnight in summer . "Seeing is believing" you are right. Place where the riots broke were all the major cities where your CCP has built highrise buildings, Karaoke, Brothels, discotheques...which you people think that all these make people happy. But Tibetans proved that for them happiness in much more intricate and internal matter. So here you must have realized now that not everything you see could concord with your belief. and remember --all that glitters is not gold!!!

Whole country...harmony etc..this is what HHDL is also working hard for. HHDL is more concerned than you and your CCP about the stabilty of China as a whole. You can't be stronger anymore suppressing and repressing the dissents. Power of arms and amunition failed to win people's heart..ultimately it is the power of compassion that would save china from bloody and disgraceful splitting.

You believe western media or not is your personal choice as it is for us to believe, CCTV, people's daily, chinadaily, Xinhua daily etc which always cook silly stories against HHDL and TYC and Tibetans. We just know that nobody buy these stuffs.

You talk about heart, I am quite happy to see that chinese do have hearts. If so do emphatize the situation in which Tibetans in and outside Tibet are in right now and involve your government to do a serious dialogue which will benefit both the Tibetan's freedom and chinese stabilty.
Mere making allegation doesn't work. It only help stretch time. It has been now 50 long years that Tibetans are suppressed, descriminated and disenfranchised,

It is hightime the solution is sought if not for the respect of Human rights and Tibetan freedom but atleast for the concern of Chinese unity, integrety and stabilty.

and plese be faithful to your heart....seeing only is not enough to draw a conclusive belief.

Kushh, it�s hard for one to imagine that some guys can neglect any evidence in front of him and shouting out his baseless arguments so bravely. But now I have to believe that. You gave us a well example.

Kushh, your simple logic is like this: CCP is absolutely bad. So any deed of it is surely evil. And any of its opinions is obviously wrong. Finally, you go so far to believe any force against CCP is therefore good, while any pro-China force is therefore as evil as CCP.

Then you became �selectively blind�. And then there were your ridiculous words.

You have done enough to demonize China, and made enough brainless praise and bless of any enemy of China.

In 1980s, some of you western people praised Osama bin Laden and his peers as �freedom fighters of Afghanistan� or something alike. You were against Soviet Union. So you supported any of its enemy. Then in 2001, you have 911.

Today, TYC is openly calling for suicide bombing attack on Beijing Olympics. You are still supporting it, and called its spiritual leader HHDL.

Well, that�s funny.

But are you sure the next target for TYC (or its peers) is not Pentagon?

Oh...
Kushh, Excuse me.
I thought you were western guy.
But seems that you are one of the TYC...

Ok. Terrorists always believe they are standing for justice (or pretend to be good in order to gain support)... I should not waste time with you...

evanstle said: Oh...
Kushh, Excuse me.
"I thought you were western guy.
But seems that you are one of the TYC...

Ok. Terrorists always believe they are standing for justice (or pretend to be good in order to gain support)... I should not waste time with you..."

Hatred begets hatred. I don't want to be a part of this game. But I know that not to tell truth is crime on one hand and cowardice on the other.


You killed 1.2 million Tibetans, destroyed 6000 monastries, let Tibetans live in fear of detention, imprisonement and persecution for fifty years and still..and you call yourself liberators!!! When we make peaceful protest to express our grevience you call usTerrorist? If you can tell me only one incidence where TYC has used even a stick to express their agitation or killed even one chinese by TYC, I would henceforth consider you CCP gods and do offerings eventhough its notoriety of genocidal activities have broken Hitler's record!!!

It seems you are either blinded by your chauvanistic attitude or brainwashed by CCP propaganda. Human suffering doesn't mean anything to you. You better have some philosophy in your life. it will give you a reason to live. Other-wise life for you seems like enjoying, eating , drinking , sleeping ,shitting and torturing mankind.;


---------------------------

Kushh,
enough!
Stop lying about genocide or cultural genocide OK?

According to data provided by your theocracy government in Tibet, in 1953, the total population of Tibetans was only about 1 million. Then in 2001, the result from P.R.China's 5th population investigation revealed that Tibetan population reached 2.4272 million (not including other ethnics living in Tibet). Then you said 'You killed 1.2 million Tibetans'??? Hey, interesting. The more we killed, the more Tibetans are??? In 1951 there was only 1 million Tibetans. Then how could we kill 1.2 millions? You think Tibetans spring from the earth like mushroom???

Kushh, another of your allegetions is about 'You...destroyed 6000 monasteries'.

What do you meaning by 'You'? I am a Chinese college student. But I never got to Tibet. And it is well known that few Chinese are willing to get into Tibet, because high altitude is harmful to our health.

During the years of cultural revolution (and another movement in China), many old cultures are damaged. But wait, by whom?

If anyone is familiar with Chinese history, he will know the main destructive force of traditional culture, is not army or police, but the 'Red Guard'. Red Guard is constitute primarily with local middle and high school students, who got fervent cult of personality of Mao. In fact in other regions of China, many tokens of traditions (like temples) were also damaged.

Now it's clear who made destruction of over 97% of Tibetan monasteries during 1960s and 1970s. They are Red Guard of Tibetans, not of Hans. Only local people were able to find every of these monasteries in mid of the vast high plateau of Tibet and destroyed them.

It is true that CCP made successful brain wash at that dark age. CCP was guilty for that. But it is not to say every other was innocent in Cultural Revolution. Everyone who took part in that movement (no matter brainwashed or not) was guilty too.

So, the point is, CCP made the brainwash, while local Tibetans made the actions. Funny is that today's old Tibetans are too shamed to confess this, and just put every guilt on CCP. Then Tibetan separatists feel comfortable to assert Han is the greatest demon to be beaten down.

Further more, Tibetan separatists always use 'cultural genocide' to describe the tragedy. But in fact, such 'cultural genocide' do not only happened in Tibet, but all around other regions of China. So, following their silly logic, we Hans are making 'cultural genocide' on ourselves. How ridiculous is that!

The real intention of Tibetan separatist is, to incite the conflict between Tibetans and Hans, and finally to separate Tibet from China and revive their theocracy rule and privilege in Tibet.

Kushh,
Many Tibetans took part in firing the street and killing innocents. There are so many videos and pictures taken by western tourists or some. But you still said 'If you can tell me only one incidence where TYC has used even a stick'!!!

Open your eyes Kushh, that's your so called 'peaceful protest to express our grevience'!!!

Kushh,
I am not a chauvinist. And I think any chauvinism is stupid. We believe every person, regardless of his/her ethnic, is born to be equal in personality.

I am not so easily brainwashed in this information age. I do know CCP made many mistakes in history, and even now. I rarely glance at People's Daily. I even took critical attitude to every piece of news on CCTV.

I am just an average Chinese Han student in university. And there are millions of other Chinese students like me.

But this time, when we saw mobs kill innocents on street in videos taken by foreign tourists, when we heard TYC openly calling on suicide bombing attack on Olympics, when we learnt 'HH' Dalai Lama claimed most of destroyed banks, chains, and souvenir stores were places of prostitution, we really feel angry! And we will not tolerate such sufferings! We won't allow such hypocritical affectation of 'HH' Dalai and his followers!

You are trying to downgrade me (and my peers) as 'Chinese has no hearts' and 'Human suffering doesn't mean anything to you' and 'life for you seems like enjoying, eating , drinking , sleeping ,shitting and torturing mankind'...

But that's useless. That would not bring any eloquence of you. That is only to expose your lack of persuasion of your argument.

Hey, kushh :
I'm dusy today. Keep debating if you see it. It's nice to do. I will explain my opinions later.

Bless for all.

evanstle said: Kushh, another of your allegetions is about 'You...destroyed 6000 monasteries'.

"What do you meaning by 'You'? I am a Chinese college student. But I never got to Tibet. And it is well known that few Chinese are willing to get into Tibet, because high altitude is harmful to our health."

I used "you" because you are, at this point of time, acting as the vioce of CCP and advocating and defending its misdeed. If you didn't go to Tibet, have no contact with Tibetans and no willingness about anything that is concernning Tibet and Tibetans, then why are you saying so confidently about Tibet's Past, present and future! This is the reason I said you are blinded, brainwashed and programmed by CCP. You are nothing just a human Robot..which only can get voilent on and off.

First you put off the blanket of hatred that enveloped your soul and learn to put yourself into a Tibetan shoes and walk a distance..only then you will know why Tibetans are raising voice!!!

If Tibet's altitude is so harmful to you, what are 6-7millions Hans doing in Tibet. Demographic repression? Ethnic cleansing?Culutural Genocide?

You seem to be happy about Han's culture becoming diluted, blended and concocted. This is your philosophy of life, we have no problem with that. But for us Tibetans, culture, religion are language are the backbones of our civilization. These make us "Tibetans" and we are asking for carta blanche concerning these.

If we like the what you called the theocracy, what is your problem? If you feel angry about us for that, then we can't help

evanstle said:

"But this time, when we saw mobs kill innocents on street in videos taken by foreign tourists"

I wish you don't go too much by videos and Picture. We have also seen many videos telling the other stories.
Mob killing innocent? CCTV, and countless CCP loyalists might be broadcasting some studio shot films to instigate violence and hatred among the people of Han and Tibetans. They did it and do it. They plant PLA in Tibetan dress(wrongly worn), armies in monk's disguise etc..to make sure that hatred towards Tibetans and love, sympathy and nationalistic feelings toward CCP's rule grow stonger and faster among the majority Han. The result is clear...you,eguda and as you say milllions others all think the same way the CCP wanted you to think about HHDL and TYC and TIbetans.

Most channels show that Crowd being dispered by Tanks and countless armoured police.


"when we heard TYC openly calling on suicide bombing attack on Olympics"
Again CCTV's and CCP's stradegy to let you people hate Tibetans and HHDL so much so that you will lose your conscience. No body, not even you have heard TYC president or whoever saying so from their MOUTH...it was a speculative judgement you do on the basis of the amount of hatred you have built against Tibetans and bare lies CCP tells incessantly. I assure you that the Tibetan no matter what Ideology they might hold will not do or encourage anybody to do such an inhuman act like suicide bombing!!!

"when we learnt 'HH' Dalai Lama claimed most of destroyed banks, chains, and souvenir stores were places of prostitution, we really feel angry! "

I don't clearly understand this point which seemingly is against HHDL as always. Agree it ornot, Lhasa is full of prostitutes,brothels, Karaoke, Discotheque atc...Tibetans in general consider these things non-virtous. Hindering elements to self realisation and cause of samsaric misery. Don't get so angry about this.

You are trying to downgrade me (and my peers) as 'Chinese has no hearts' and 'Human suffering doesn't mean anything to you' and 'life for you seems like enjoying, eating , drinking , sleeping ,shitting and torturing mankind'...

I will not make counter-allegation for you for making filthy remarks on HHDL and Tibetans..this chain will not stop repeating
Once I see some compassionate aspect in you, I will change my view and will try to respect you. Nothing is permanent, I hope I chat you in respect in future.

eguda said: Hey, kushh :
I'm dusy today. Keep debating if you see it. It's nice to do. I will explain my opinions later.

Bless for all.
---------------------------
Ok, I have now only two weeks..then I am going to a place where there is no internet.

Whatever, I believe I should make my mind flexible enough to accomodate and understand the Chinese better.You I hope will make your mind flexible enough to accomodate and understand the Tiebtans better.

This is what co-existence is all about!!

Last thing, Tibet's future shouldn't be forsaken for its past history. Always mysterios history.

Love to all

Kushh, your reasoning is still so funny.

quote from kushh's words:
------------------------------------------------------
If you didn't go to Tibet, have no contact with Tibetans and no willingness about anything that is concernning Tibet and Tibetans, then why are you saying so confidently about Tibet's Past, present and future!
------------------------------------------------------
In your words, you implied 2 points:
First,
if one never get to Tibet, he won't know Tibet's past, present, or future, and should not talk about Tibet.
You means all others who never reached Tibet should not talk about Tibet confidently. But why do you separatists keep on calling for support from other countries?
Today, most of western supporters of separatists never got to Tibet. So you should make them shut up since you hold such reasonning.
Second,
you imply since you have been in Tibet, no matter how many years ago and how short does he stay in Tibet, you know Tibet's past / present / future.
Kushh, you are now in India right? How can you know the current situation in Tibet? Further more, even you spend entile life in Tibt, how can you know past, or even future of Tibet?
The fact is, most of your knowledge of Tibet is not from what you see, it is from media, books, and others' words.
You are in India. I am in China. How can you assert you definitely know Tibet better than me?

quote from Kushh,
----------------------------------
This is the reason I said you are blinded, brainwashed and programmed by CCP. You are nothing just a human Robot..which only can get voilent on and off.
----------------------------------
Kushh, don't do it again.
Every time you failed to support your point, you did not provide evidence or give logical reasonning, you just said ' you are brainwashed' or something similar '.

Kushh, that do not make any sense.

evanstle .

quote from kushh's words:
------------------------------------------------------
If you didn't go to Tibet, have no contact with Tibetans and no willingness about anything that is concernning Tibet and Tibetans, then why are you saying so confidently about Tibet's Past, present and future!
------------------------------------------------------
Read carefully what I have written..don't jump to give your speculative judgement and please Don't put the blame back on me. It is always your CCP who parrots the same lines "foriegners should come to Tibet to know the facts" but unfortunately this happens always to be CCP rhetoric!!! May be on rarest of rare occassion some foriegners might have been invited to Tibet just to see the fact but not the truth.

I can subscribe to your opinion about Tibet's past, present and future only if you accomodate some space in your heart to read,hear and believe about books, media, prints, testimonies etc not only of the CCP which only help built hatred in your heart for Tibetans and for everything that contradicts CCP's ideology of colonalism and repressive governance..

"Kushh, you are now in India right? How can you know the current situation in Tibet?
How do I know? were I in slumber? we are posting each other only because pain of cancerous condition in Tibet gave metastasis worldwide. The difference is that you stand to defend that the cancer doesn't pain, and I stand here to convince you that it does hurt!! This is alone is enough to show that nothing is alright in Tibet!

"You are in India. I am in China. How can you assert you definitely know Tibet better than me? "
Of course I know better. I am a Tibetan. Only the wearer knows where the shoe pinches.

You might know the facts....like highrise buildings, mushrooming brothels, karaoke and discotheque!! You might Know the fact that CCP subsidized liquir, cigarrett etc, You might also know the fact that CCP is investing 400 million yuan for the restoration of the monasteries as eguda has once said, you might know the fact that CCP built world 's highest Railroad connecting Lhasa to other Cities, but you are far from knowing the truth that lies covered underneath.

You don't know the truth that Tibetans are second class citizen in thier own country. Modernization in Tibet only serves for chinese themselves. You don't know the truth that this so called modernization drags many Tibetan youth into drugs, delinquincy and promiscuity. You don't know the truth that CCP's stradegy of urban modernization left many Tibetans wash off with their cultural, religiou and moral values.
You don't know the truth that CCP has plundered hundreds of Billion USD worth antique from the 6000 or more monasteries they razed to ground. You don't know the truth that railway has sped up evacuating Tibet of its precious mineral and forest resources causing irreparable damage for Himalaya's ecosystem., You don't know the Truth that CCP"s nuclear dumping has increased to manyfold in recent years. You don't know the truth that if you go to visit you relatives in Tibet, you are directed, scripted and guided what to talk and what not to, what to do and what not to, where to go and where not to. Do you think this is all freedom. Will this save the shameful face of CCP let alone saving it from disgraceful split one day!!
Try to find Truth from the facts. facts can be misleading!!!!

quote from Kushh:
---------------
No body, not even you have heard TYC president or whoever saying so from their MOUTH...it was a speculative judgement you do on the basis of the amount of hatred you have built against Tibetans and bare lies CCP tells incessantly.
----------------
How can you assert nobody heard that?
Do you mean TYC president should invite CNN & NYtimes & BBC, and give a news conference, and speak loudly 'we are terrorists, not peaceful. we will make suicide bombing on Olympics'???
He only need to tell his followers, and plan for the attacks.
-
Well, frankly speaking, I hope CCP lied about this issue. I hope Tibetan separatists are not terrorists. But that's useless.
-
Let's waiting for 2008 Olympics. We can see the nature of TYC or something.

quote from Kushh
---------------------
You don't know the truth that Tibetans are second class citizen in thier own country. Modernization in Tibet only serves for chinese themselves. You don't know the truth that this so called modernization drags many Tibetan youth into drugs, delinquincy and promiscuity. You don't know the truth that CCP's stradegy of urban modernization left many Tibetans wash off with their cultural, religiou and moral values.......................................................................................Try to find Truth from the facts. facts can be misleading!!!!
----------------------------
I really don't know that.
And for me, I do believe modernization and western life style are some thing pursued by average Tibetans there own!
-
No one force Tibetan youth to eat Mcdonald. No one force Tibetan youth to drink Cocacola. No one force Tibetans to use electricity, to use cars, trucks, trains.
But Tibetans persue them by theirselves OK?

Kushh, I, and many other Chinese know very well about the tortue of Tibetans during 1960&1970s, for we experienced similar things.
-
But that's not a proper reason for your current agitation for uprising, nor a decent reason for pursuit for independence for Tibet.
-
Today's China Government is making progress and remedies for its misdeed in Cultural revolution or other movement.
Today every province of China is providing huge amount of finance aid to Tibet.
But Tibetan separatists only know to take every chance (like Olympics event) to demonize the entile China, and, of course, to lead riot at some ideal time.

Kushh, tell me what Tibetan separatists want?
-Average Tibetans want to improve their lives. Then China government helped them. Then Tibetan separatists said we are making cultural genocide since we are changing their lifestyle.
-Since Tibetans want electricity and modern goods, there must be some industries to produce them. Then separatists shouted out that we are destroying the environment in Tibet.
-Don't you think that's totally hypocrisy?

I say it again. I do not care the face of CCP. I rarely watch CCTV or read People's Daily.
But I really do not know about 'second class citizen'. In most cases, I, and most of other Chinese can not tell who is minority ethinic and who is han. We can not even distinguish them. How can we discriminate them.
-
Tibetans' relative disadvantages in education and jobs do not derive from the alleged discrimination. Tibet's relative lack of educational resources is primarily because the geography condition of Tibet. High altitude and lack of oxygen do not suit ethinics other than Tibetans. Then few good teachers are willing to be there. And many Tibetan youths who received education in other part of China finally choose to leave Tibet forever for ecnomic reason.
-
For similar reason, any investments in Tibet could be costly. Any goods transported to Tibet will cost a lot. The consequence is unemployment and low income.
-
It's true that some Hans (especially officers and privileged business men) in Tibet living in better conditions than Tibetans.
There are many reason. But none is about discrimination.
One reason is that there is some compensation of slowly deterioration of their physical condition.
Another reason is Hans are relatively high educated. (reasons refering to above, not about discrimination, either)

If it is so hard and expensive and difficult for the chinese to maintain Tibet. Why doesn't CCP leave Tibet alone??? why clung to Tibet and make baseless accussation about HHDL.

Honestly speaking, I don't know your intention, but that of CCP's is not for the welfare of Tibetans, they do some developmental works with certain vested interest in select areas.

You seem to be so caring for the Tibetans...but truth is something you would hate to hear. even after 59 years of CCP's takeover, there is still no electricity, no telephone connection, no hospital..education, sanitation and comunication seem distant dream in most part of Tibet in general and western Tibet in particular.

You won't believe without picture, video and audio. How can I bring you the picture of not having electricity and phone and hospital and road and sanitation...I have loads of pictures of the people, seeing them you would get surprised if not shocked to see them just like the picture CCP's these days posts in every website to blame HHDL for Pre-1959 situation. My friend this is 2008.

I am hessitant to post the picture on the net for fear of possible prosecution to the innocent people in the picture. CCP can do anything..I don't really trust. They are in-human.

In some CCP acclaimed better areas,even after 59 years of CCp's takeover, Tibetans are still living in the mud house. THe best way to commute there is tractor journey...you were talking about McDonald, Pizza, and coke...I don't know if they have enough Tsampa to eat!!

quote from Kushh,
----------------------
No body, not even you have heard TYC president or whoever saying so from their MOUTH...it was a speculative judgement you do on the basis of the amount of hatred you have built against Tibetans and bare lies CCP tells incessantly. I assure you that the Tibetan no matter what Ideology they might hold will not do or encourage anybody to do such an inhuman act like suicide bombing!!!
----------------------
You imply that TYC did not say that?
But, that's lying, just as Tibetan separatists always be.
-
Now I give you the evidence, which is not from CCP, and even not from China!
-
The call for SUICIDE ATTACK made by Tsewang Rigzin was firstly reported by an Italian media, who interview Tsewang Rigzin in DHARAMSALA. I give you the link of original report:
Italian version:
http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2008/marzo/27/non_violenza_Non_paga_Potremmo_co_9_080327123.shtml
If you can not read Italian, you can translate it into English using google:(just use following link)
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Farchiviostorico.corriere.it%2F2008%2Fmarzo%2F27%2Fnon_violenza_Non_paga_Potremmo_co_9_080327123.shtml
-
Now it is clear that who is blind and who is lying.
It is clear that TYC got off its hypocritical mask ...
'Nonviolence'???
A group of suicide attackers that of 'nonviolence'???

Now at last you come to believe media!! Till date you(CCP) were the ones who question the credibilty of western media.

You go to phayul.com and refer to voice of America(Mid-April episode). You will get the answer. During VOA's live telecast, he was made by many viewers to clarify what he has told Italian media. He flatly denied this allegation and even said that he would face any media to answer on this. I don't have to lie. Perhaps that journalist was heftily paid by CCP to tarnish the image of TYC and distract world attention from the protesters!!!
If you still don't believe, you can email directly to him. I can get you his ID if you are serious...because it seems you are very enthuziastic as I am to go to the depth of matter.

By the way whatwever TYC does, they are transparent, peaceful and non-violent.
Just think logically, on one hand you say Tibetans in India live unprivileged life, on ther other hand you suspect that we are acpable of sponsoring, training and motivating suicide bombers....work out your brain..pal

kushh,

you are soooooooooooo BORING!!!

WE don't have to debate with him, from every of his words, he is actually a dalai's slavery!

as everyone knows, slavery must be honest to Dalai. They are totally brainwashed.

Why not let him tell us how dalai treat him as a slave? (or SM? just a joke=) Does he feel high? haha!

ONE WORLD, ONE CHINA!

quote from Kushh,
---------
Now at last you come to believe media!! Till date you(CCP) were the ones who question the credibilty of western media.
You go to phayul.com and refer to voice of America(Mid-April episode). You will get the answer. During VOA's live telecast, he was made by many viewers to clarify what he has told Italian media. He flatly denied this allegation and even said that he would face any media to answer on this. I don't have to lie. Perhaps that journalist was heftily paid by CCP to tarnish the image of TYC and distract world attention from the protesters!!!
----------
1.-We questioned western medias. That's not to say anything they told was lie. Now we get used to check the original source of the information. That's why we assert CNN (and many medias) lied on the by cliping original photo and similar disgusting tricks.
Now that Italian report is the original source. But you simply believe whatever pro-China is wrong, and whoever pro-China is lying and paid by CCP. That is totally baseless allegation.
2.-You said Italian media is paid by CPP. But I do not understand how could it be.
And when things get to image of China, the credibility of VOA is still questionable.
VOA (and in fact CIA or something behind) made a well-know trick in 1989. It record some words from Chai Ling (a student leader of that movement), and broadcast them. (And their interview made just on Chai Ling's way to escape from China. That's like a well-premeditated plot.)
But many other student leaders (who already got to USA) denied a lot of her words (such as tanks crushing students).
So, I am not going to doubt the credibility of voice record.
But even if VOA (or others) really got the voice from TYC. That does not mean TYC was not lying again.
After all Chai Ling lied, so can TYC.
-
If you want to see the real face of some western medias like CNN, you can also get to http://www.anti-cnn.com.
Remember, humans are easy to tell lies, but camera can not.
Check the picture (and original picture) used by those western medias, and you can easily found who is lying or demonstrating their cliping skills over photos.

Kushh,
I do not agree with your words about 'TYC (or the refugee government) is transparent' or hence 'They are not able to train terrorists'.
I think you should know better than me that, there is too much corruption in Dharamsala.
You got so much finance sponsorship from all around the world. But economy in Dharamsala is still so bad, much worse than Lhasa, and even worse than average towns in India.
There is a question: where does the money go?
-
No government and few political groups could be really transparent, guy. That's not a decent reason to deny TYC's support to Terrorism.

Your belief itself is too much alienated from the truth. Your vehement advocacy of CCP's brutality puts me in doubt if you are not paid to profess here!

Do you think anti-cnn.com is mother of all truth?. This itself is a crap CCP has given birth recenly to ignite chinese netizen to hate west and those who stand for truth. YOu should be cautious that hatred begets hatred only. Without knowing the truth and without even trying to know the truth you are throwing accusations frivolously against HHDL and TYC...did they killed, tortured and rape your parents and relative. Did they plundered, looted and robbed you of your wealth, did they insult, abuse and accused you!!!!


On the contrary all these things CCP did to us, and did you notice how did we retaliate? and did you see how they the CCP suppressed. And you want to justify them by labeling us as liars.

I can flood you with youtube videos, threads and links telling just the opposite of what you want to hear...will you believe them.

Without once removing the envelope of hatred you wear proudly as CCP's ornament, you can't even sense the Truth let alone knowing it.

jeffreymeng said: kushh,

you are soooooooooooo BORING!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are so active having nothing to say other than provocative meaningless post. does this keep you high?

"WE don't have to debate with him, from every of his words, he is actually a dalai's slavery!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You call this debate? What point did you bring out here other then those filthy remarks that only the real hooligan and Terrorists use!

"Slave of The Dalai Lama?"

I would rather pray that i be blessed with that privilege life after life. Do you have problem with that. To me you seem more enslaved by ignorance, hatred and anger.


as everyone knows, slavery must be honest to Dalai. They are totally brainwashed.

"Why not let him tell us how dalai treat him as a slave? (or SM? just a joke=) Does he feel high? haha!"

What a salacious man you are! Don't you have your sisters?.....oh pardon I forgot the CCP has snathed this privilege also from you. So Don't you have mother?


---------------------------

West media usually lie.what happen in iraq is proof.
this picture also taken in Nepal�not in CHINESE tibet. LOL.You give youself a lesson

by nebali (1 week ago)reply

True or False:
The Chinese do not allow Tibetans to practice their religion as they want.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am deeply surprised by your naive and innocence,i would suggest you to have a look in Tibet by your own eyes,not just read these sensational news in western medias.I stay at a Tibetan temple for 1 month in 2005,that's impossible for the Chinese government to ban their religion pracitce there.They even don need to pay the tax as what the Han chinese have to do.

This picture was taken in Nepel or India,not in China. This is a evidence of what the Western medias did their little games over the issue.

When We were called Sick man of Asia, We were called The Peril.
When We are billed to be the next Superpower, We are called The threat.

When We were closed our doors, You smuggled Drugs to Open Markets.
When We Embrace Freed Trade, You blame us for Taking away your jobs.
??????
When We were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your "fair share".
When We were putting the broken pieces together again, "Free Tibet" you screamed,
(Completely forget about your own position ??? standing on an occupied land where tortured soul are still moaning from underneath???)

So, We Tried Communism, You blamed us for being Communists
When We embrace Capitalism, You hate us for being Capitalist.
???
When We have a Billion People, you said we were destroying the planet.
When We are tried limited our numbers, you said It was human rights abuse.

When We were Poor, You think we are dogs.
When We Loan you cash, You hate us for your debts.
??????
When We build our industries, You called us Polluters.
(Is China polluting the world or the other way round?!)
When we sell you goods, You blame us for global warming.
??????
When We buy oil, You called that exploitation and Genocide.
When You wage war for oil, You called that Liberation.
??????
When We were lost in Chaos and rampage, You wanted Rules of Law for us.
When We uphold law and order against Violence, You called that Violating Human Rights.

When We were silent, You said you want us to have Free Speech.
When We were silent no more, You say we were Brainwashed-Xenophoics.

Why do you hate us so much? We asked.
"No," You Answered, "We don't hate You."
??????
We don't Hate You either,
But Do you understand us?
??????
"Of course We do," You said,
"We have AFP, CNN and BBCs..."
??????
What THE HELL do you really want from us?
Think Hard first, then Answer...
??????
Because you only get so many chances,
Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for this one world.
??????
We want One World, One Dream, And Peace On Earth.
- This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.

secretservice said: This picture was taken in Nepel or India,not in China. This is a evidence of what the Western medias did their little games over the issue.
---------------------------
This topic is old and now rotten. CNN, BBCetc bring 99.9% geniune news..they might have, owing to their busy schedule, misquoted on 0.01% occasion and you are just clung to it like lizards!!!!!

secretagent:
Here are my view for the related topics..

"secretservice said: When We were called Sick man of Asia, We were called The Peril."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was meant for CCP to be more humane...

"When We are billed to be the next Superpower, We are called The threat."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Power in the hand of wicked man is dangerous. With power comes responsibilty. And CCP is irresponsive of everything be it human right Issue, ecological issue, global warming issue, resource conservation issue...

When We were closed our doors, You smuggled Drugs to Open Markets.
When We Embrace Freed Trade, You blame us for Taking away your jobs.
??????
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Free Trade doesn't mean that CCP flood counterfeit (especially medicines)goods in the markets. It doesn't mean that CCP force prisoners and detainees to work long hour without pay!!!


"When We were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your "fair share"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats good news!!! Ididn't know until this time that CCP is falling apart.


"When We were putting the broken pieces together again, "Free Tibet" you screamed,"
______________________________________________________

Wasn't it otherway round? when CCP was crushing innocent Tibetans, raping women and nuns, beating, torturing, killing and imprisoning them...FREE TIBET was heard laud!!

"So, We Tried Communism, You blamed us for being Communists
When We embrace Capitalism, You hate us for being Capitalist.
???"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benefit of capitalism should reach to all the people irrespective of their enthicity, race and location. Killing puppies to save a dog doesn't serve purpose.

"When We have a Billion People, you said we were destroying the planet."

One should also take into consideration about ones resources before undertaking frenzied child producing activities.

"When We are tried limited our numbers, you said It was human rights abuse."

This was when CCP tried ethnic cleasing under the cover of population control!

"When We were Poor, You think we are dogs.
When We Loan you cash, You hate us for your debts.
??????"

I don't nkow about this. But nobody does anything without calculating atleast double in return...as far as CCP is concerned it is impossible without having calculated many folds in return.


"When We were lost in Chaos and rampage, You wanted Rules of Law for us.
When We uphold law and order against Violence, You called that Violating Human Rights."
======================================================
Police and armies involving in riot as instigators is definitely not a act of upholding law and order! Ignoring certain section's greveince too is not an act of upholding law and order... law and order doesn't mean that you crush the dissents under tank..or shoot them, mutilate them and imprison them,,,and create false proof and eveidence to show the world and general public to win sympathy...

"When We were silent, You said you want us to have Free Speech.
When We were silent no more, You say we were Brainwashed-Xenophoics."
======================================================

If you weren't brainwashed, You should have atleast try to go deeper intofinding the truth..while CCP tries to drag you further from it.

"Why do you hate us so much? We asked.
"No," You Answered, "We don't hate You."
??????
We don't Hate You either,"
======================================================
Hatred begets hatred...we don't hate Chinese, we were time and again dissapointed, dejected and deprived by CCP
======================================================
"But Do you understand us?
??????"

I can't understand you why you care only the phisical aspect of everything. Not trying to go deeper to know the truth,..
====================================================

"What THE HELL do you really want from us?"

We want CCP to hold an unconditional dialogue with HHDL to sort out Tibet Issue.
===================================================

"Think Hard first, then Answer...
??????"

We have thought it for the last 59 years..perhaps before you are born.
===============================================

"Because you only get so many chances,

We are asking for this only one chnace for the last 60 years...before you being born."
=================================================
"Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for this one world.
??????"

If truth sounds hypocritical....then some hospitals can help I guess
======================================================
"We want One World, One Dream, And Peace On Earth.
- This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us."

Then why CCP is hellbound to repress Tibetans in the fear of losing it. and abuse, insult and accuse HHDL that he is talking about Human rights in Tibet.
---------------------------

This topic is old. But such pictures are used again and again. When secretservice say this picture, he means THIS Picture. The one with the article we are commenting on.

kushh said: secretservice said: This picture was taken in Nepel or India,not in China. This is a evidence of what the Western medias did their little games over the issue.
---------------------------
This topic is old and now rotten. CNN, BBCetc bring 99.9% geniune news..they might have, owing to their busy schedule, misquoted on 0.01% occasion and you are just clung to it like lizards!!!!!
---------------------------

TO Kushh, Evanstle, Secretservice and Other Guys here:

First of all, Happy the May Day!
You will be in the 3-days vocation during the Labour Day if you are in mainland, but I just spent all my days to prepare these articles. Reading and writing makes me totally tired. I really hate to write in English!
But, I think it's worth to do. We do have to make sense for our debates, don't we? Truth DOES need eveidence, doesn't it? Here, it's the first article:

(The following article is part-translated from a Chinese article written by Minimoon in NewYTHT.Net and XinHuTu.Net . The author is an arts graduate student in German.)
On January 28th 1989, the 10th Panchen Erdini died in Shigatse, age 51, at Tashi Lhunpo Monastery. The central government agree to choose the 11th Panchen Erdini. And because it's a tibetan ritual, the searching process should be follow the tibetan traditional rule in order to make sure the choosen one is the real and legal both in law and religion. At the same time, considering the political need, the central government want to remind the authority in the whole process, and the new Rinpoche must be found in China.For these two aims, Beijing's strategy is constituted a search party with the lamas in Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, authorized them to affirm dozen of saint boys by the ancient traditions(dreams oracles divinations and seeking), then write the candidates' names in the ivory labels, put it into the gole urn, at last, in the supervising of central government, pick one label from it, let Buddha choose the it.Then new PanChen Erdini has been recognized formally. It's easy to see the Golden Urn tradition, which is introduced in 1793 by the Qing's emperor QianLong is also very important for central government.
At the first begining, Beijing government doesn't want Dalai Lama to involve into this case, but considering the validity of the new rinpoche, they compromised and was trying to gain a consensus in the searching, for not only the Dalai Lama's recognition but also the central government's recognition is acquired in the validity. In that time, the attitude of Beijing is "with the coorperation, it will be the best; without the cooperation, central government can do it alone in disregard of Dalai Lama"

So, in this notion, they're acquiesced in the letter connection between Dalai Lama and the head of the search party, abbot of Tashilhunpo monastery, the Chadral Rinpoche.
Early in the 1991, Dalai Lamahas already started to inform the central government through Delhi embassy that he wished to assist in the search for the Panchen Lama's reincarnation by sending a delegation to a sacred lake in Tibet. Considering the sensitivity of the affairs, the central government responded that there was no need for interference. From 1990 to 1993, his brother Gyalo Thondup persuaded Chinese government in diffrent occasion that let Dalai Lama get involved, let him sent lamas in the searching.
Chadral Rinpoche sent a letter with the form of traditional tibet scroll on July 17, 1993 to the Dalai Lama by Gyalo Thondup, during the later's visiting in Beijing. This scroll, with the respectful diction when mentioned Dalai Lama, saluted him and impetrated for his help in finding the new PanChen Lama as soon as possible, in other wards, asking for his unofficial interference.
It's easy to understand for normal Hans like me even in 1995, that it's surely important of a Dalai Lama confirmed PanChen Erdini from Tibetan's aspect. So Chadral Rinpoche continued the letters with Dalai Lama. At the end of 1994, the search party prepared the list of all 25 boys in which the new Rinpoche will be chosen. While Chadral Rinpoche sent a letter to Dalai Lama, he listed 25 boys' name and their details within everyone's photo(the only photo in Wikipedia now). And he informed that every clue shows that one of the saint boys, Gedun Choekyi Nyima, it's the real one.At the begining of nextt year, 1995, Dalai Lama comfirmed the checking, and agreed with Chadral Rinpoche in his opinion.And then, in Fabuary, he write back to Chadral Rinpoche that his prophecies shows the same conclusion.
Now that Chadral Rinpoche has the confirmation from Dalai Lama, next step will be the key! He need the comfirmation from Beijing. His plan is to gain the recognization from Beijing firstly, then Dalai Lama acknowledge this result and relieve the Gold Urn Ritual, nobady will lose face.
According to chinese media, Chadral Rinpoche tried to persuade Beijing to do so, and make sure that by tibetan tradition, he have already done the ritual before the 10th PanChen's Spiritual Tower(his tomb) at Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, and the conclusion shows Gedun Choekyi Nyima is the real Rinpoche beyond controversy. But the tragedy is, his efforts resulted nothing, in May, Beijing is still urged him to deliver 3 to 5 boy's name to do the Ritual under the supervision.
In this time, the 14th May (5-14 not 3-14) 12 years ago, Dalai Lama declared suddenly in Dharansala to the world that he has comfirmed that Gedun Choekyi Nyima is the PanChen Erdini 11th . His announce assert that the Chinese government have no any authorities in the choosing, he said that searching and choosing the Rinpoche of PanChen Lama is a religional affaire, not a political affaire.
All those statements certainly enraged the central government and put it in an awkward situation.Beijing had wanted to be followed the steps of tibetan tradition through Chadral Rinpoche and Tashilhunpo monastery. But now it has only been throwed away aside with humiliation and the whole affair seems none of their business at all.
Dalai Lama shows to the world that although he is in exile, he still has the influence and the power to decide at last.
It's obviously that Dalai Lama knows this preemptive declarance will enrage Chinese government. He did it on purpose to make it clear to Beijing and the rest of the world that he's playing a critical role in this issue. But if you consider the standpoint of Chinese government, his declarance is a strong message of an opposed politics action in order to put an indignity upon CCP, and testified again that he grabs the western reputation without consideration of the cost China will pay. China thinks that Dalai Lama disdained Beijing again in another critical time, and the message is so clear: He don't want to cooperate with Beijing.
Dalai Lama's preemptive declarance of the next PanChen Erdini, shows he is insensitive to polit